notes

Disclaimer

This page was automatically converted from a module that was shared prior to the release of Published Pages. Additionally, the arc below was auto-converted from the arc created by the author (which used the old module), and so it is possible there are misplaced logical relationships.

notes 1452680588040 Disclaimer This page was automatically converted from a module that was shared prior to the release of Published Pages. Additionally, the arc below was auto-converted from the arc created by the author (which used the old module), and so it is possible there are misplaced logical relationships.

Notes

2011-03-07 17:25:44

2011-04-04 12:32:01

I made this arc after I've heard Sam Storms' argument against pre-mil in the moderated discussion with Hamilton, Wilson and Piper. He stated that there couldn't be anyone left to live in a literal, earthly millenium, if everyone on earth would be killed. He referenced specifically Revelation 19:21. I wanted to find out whether Storms' argument is valid. What we have here are four progressing events: 1. Beast with armies of the world are gathered 2. Beast and Prophet are captured 3. Beast and Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire 4. The rest were slain by the sword For all of these events we get some kind of explanation: 1. The reason why they are gathered is because they want to fight against the one on the horse 2. We are told what the beast and the prophet have done before this war, namely: I the prophet deceived people II We are told that those people are the ones, who took the mark of the beast and worshipped the image 3. We're told that the lake of fire in which the prophet and the beast are thrown into burns with sulfur 4. We are told how the rest is killed, namely by the sword of the rider's mouth and we are told the result of the killing - the birds ate all of that flesh. To determine who "the rest" is we just have to look at all the persons described before, that are neither beast nor prophet. The persons described before are the people, who took the mark of the beast and worshiped the image. Apart from the kings and armies (who would fall into the same category) there are no other people mentioned. So the "rest" clearly must refer to those, who took the mark of the beast. This text doesn't rule out that there are other people on the earth, who did not take the mark and therefore will not be killed by the sword of his mouth. The 144.000 would most certainly be at least a part of this group, if not the whole group itself because it says in Revelation 14 that those have the name of the lamb on their foreheads. I believe the chief error in Storm's thinking is that when he goes through Revelation 19 he connects the proposition from verse 18 that all people are killed with the statement in verse 21 that "the rest" will be killed and concludes that there's nobody left. The problem is that verse 18 doesn't talk about the actual killing, it is only the announcement of what is going to happen in the following verses. So the "rest" is the same group as is described in vese 18. It could be argued from verse 18 that the rest refers to all people, living on the earth, but I think that argument would be very weak. The "all" in this verse doesn't have to refer to all people in an absolute sense, but (as is qualified at the end of the verse) it can easily refer to just all kinds of people. I believe that the 144.000 are literaly 144.000 Jews although I have no idea why Ephraim and Dan are not mentioned and I have no idea where those from the nations who survive the judgment come from. Maybe the identity of those non-jewish people, who survive the judgment is just not revealed to us. God has always been able to keep a few people for himself and he doesn't have to tell us every single time who they are and where they are. I think this whole interpretation is supported by verse 15. In verse 15 it says that the rider will not only strike the nations with the sword, but that he will also rule over them with an iron rod (I have another arc for that verse). I'm open for any thoughts and further ideas on that topic.

10000000070667 70667 Notes 2011-03-07 17:25:44 2011-04-04 12:32:01 I made this arc after I've heard Sam Storms' argument against pre-mil in the moderated discussion with Hamilton, Wilson and Piper. He stated that there couldn't be anyone left to live in a literal, earthly millenium, if everyone on earth would be killed. He referenced specifically Revelation 19:21. I wanted to find out whether Storms' argument is valid. What we have here are four progressing events: 1. Beast with armies of the world are gathered 2. Beast and Prophet are captured 3. Beast and Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire 4. The rest were slain by the sword For all of these events we get some kind of explanation: 1. The reason why they are gathered is because they want to fight against the one on the horse 2. We are told what the beast and the prophet have done before this war, namely: I the prophet deceived people II We are told that those people are the ones, who took the mark of the beast and worshipped the image 3. We're told that the lake of fire in which the prophet and the beast are thrown into burns with sulfur 4. We are told how the rest is killed, namely by the sword of the rider's mouth and we are told the result of the killing - the birds ate all of that flesh. To determine who "the rest" is we just have to look at all the persons described before, that are neither beast nor prophet. The persons described before are the people, who took the mark of the beast and worshiped the image. Apart from the kings and armies (who would fall into the same category) there are no other people mentioned. So the "rest" clearly must refer to those, who took the mark of the beast. This text doesn't rule out that there are other people on the earth, who did not take the mark and therefore will not be killed by the sword of his mouth. The 144.000 would most certainly be at least a part of this group, if not the whole group itself because it says in Revelation 14 that those have the name of the lamb on their foreheads. I believe the chief error in Storm's thinking is that when he goes through Revelation 19 he connects the proposition from verse 18 that all people are killed with the statement in verse 21 that "the rest" will be killed and concludes that there's nobody left. The problem is that verse 18 doesn't talk about the actual killing, it is only the announcement of what is going to happen in the following verses. So the "rest" is the same group as is described in vese 18. It could be argued from verse 18 that the rest refers to all people, living on the earth, but I think that argument would be very weak. The "all" in this verse doesn't have to refer to all people in an absolute sense, but (as is qualified at the end of the verse) it can easily refer to just all kinds of people. I believe that the 144.000 are literaly 144.000 Jews although I have no idea why Ephraim and Dan are not mentioned and I have no idea where those from the nations who survive the judgment come from. Maybe the identity of those non-jewish people, who survive the judgment is just not revealed to us. God has always been able to keep a few people for himself and he doesn't have to tell us every single time who they are and where they are. I think this whole interpretation is supported by verse 15. In verse 15 it says that the rider will not only strike the nations with the sword, but that he will also rule over them with an iron rod (I have another arc for that verse). I'm open for any thoughts and further ideas on that topic. notes

Arc

2011-03-07 17:25:44

2011-04-04 12:32:01

editing

Revelation

Revelation 19:19-21

NT

tisch

esv

καὶ ἴδον

And I saw

τὸ θηρίον καὶ τοὺς βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς καὶ τὰ στρατεύματα αὐτῶν συνηγμένα ποιῆσαι

the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered

τὸν πόλεμον μετὰ τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ ἵππου καὶ μετὰ τοῦ στρατεύματος αὐτοῦ.

to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

actionpurpose

καὶ ἐπιάσθη τὸ θηρίον καὶ μετ’ αὐτοῦ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet

ὁ ποιήσας τὰ σημεῖα ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ,

who in its presence had done the signs

ἐν οἷς ἐπλάνησεν

by which he deceived

τοὺς λαβόντας τὸ χάραγμα τοῦ θηρίου

those who had received the mark of the beast

καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας τῇ εἰκόνι αὐτοῦ·

and those who worshiped its image.

series

ideaexplanation

actionresult

ζῶντες ἐβλήθησαν οἱ δύο εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς τῆς καιομένης ἐν θειω

These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

καὶ οἱ λοιποὶ ἀπεκτάνθησαν ἐν τῇ ῥομφαίᾳ

And the rest were slain by the sword

τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ ἵππου τῇ ἐξελθούσῃ ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ,

that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse,

actionmanner

καὶ πάντα τὰ ὄρνεα ἐχορτάσθησαν ἐκ τῶν σαρκῶν αὐτῶν.

and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

progression

discourse

10000000070667 70667 Arc 2011-03-07 17:25:44 2011-04-04 12:32:01 editing Revelation 19 19 19 21 Revelation 19:19-21 66 NT tisch esv i649158 i649146 καὶ ἴδον And I saw i649159 i649160 i649147 τὸ θηρίον καὶ τοὺς βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς καὶ τὰ στρατεύματα αὐτῶν συνηγμένα ποιῆσαι the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered i649148 τὸν πόλεμον μετὰ τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ ἵππου καὶ μετὰ τοῦ στρατεύματος αὐτοῦ. to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. actionpurpose 2 i649161 i649149 καὶ ἐπιάσθη τὸ θηρίον καὶ μετ’ αὐτοῦ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet i649162 i649150 ὁ ποιήσας τὰ σημεῖα ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ, who in its presence had done the signs i649163 i649151 ἐν οἷς ἐπλάνησεν by which he deceived i649164 i649152 τοὺς λαβόντας τὸ χάραγμα τοῦ θηρίου those who had received the mark of the beast i649153 καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας τῇ εἰκόνι αὐτοῦ· and those who worshiped its image. series ideaexplanation 1 actionresult 2 ideaexplanation 1 i649154 ζῶντες ἐβλήθησαν οἱ δύο εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς τῆς καιομένης ἐν θειω These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. i649165 i649166 i649155 καὶ οἱ λοιποὶ ἀπεκτάνθησαν ἐν τῇ ῥομφαίᾳ And the rest were slain by the sword i649156 τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ ἵππου τῇ ἐξελθούσῃ ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ, that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, actionmanner 1 i649157 καὶ πάντα τὰ ὄρνεα ἐχορτάσθησαν ἐκ τῶν σαρκῶν αὐτῶν. and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. actionresult 2 progression ideaexplanation 1 1 1 1 tisch 25 esv 25 a 50 discourse